Intermediate - What's done is done

Translation question, guys --

Hoy iba en el bus de pie Today I walked onto the bus...

I would have expected a translation  something like:  Today I was standing in the bus...(ie, I was riding in the bus and I was standing)

If the original translation is correct, could you explain it please?  Thanks.

Hi anna8,

Good catch; the sentence is ambiguous.  My first reading is "Today I was getting on to the bus (by walking)."  But grammatically it is ambiguous.  :)

La pregunta del día es:

¿Qué situacion les ha causado pena o vergüenza?

What situation has embarrassed you?

En una ocasión en una cena, le pregunte a un amigo frente a un grupo de conocidos que había visto la noche anterior a Mario besándose con una rubia. Le pregunte ¿Sabes quien es la rubia? Y me contesta si es ella!! La chica estaba sentada frente a mi!!! Me quería morir de la pena!!, pero bueno lo dicho dicho está.

On one occasion we were having dinner, and I asked a friend in front of a group of people, if he knew the blonde girl Mario made out with the night before. And he told me, yeah that´s her!! the girl was sitting in front of me! I was so embarrased! Anyway you can´t take this things back.

Hola JP.

I understand the present perfect and how it's used.  I also know not to get hung up on literal translation and to accept things as they are.

But I've learned the present perfect just as you explain here, something that has happened in the past and continues to have importance....

he trabajado aqui por dos semanas...I've worked here for two weeks.

I still work here, it's ongoing.  Present perfect.

But here we are again talking about something that occured in the past, earlier in the day.  This isn't something that continues to have importance, it's over.   

I've come to understand that the Spanish spoken in Spain uses the present perfect here where I would use either the pluscuamperfecto or the preterite.

So it really catches my attention when you explain it as deserving the present perfect, as if it were something that were ongoing.  Why not just call it a regional thing?

Thanks. 

Hi hypersport,

That's an interesting point you raise; I could have just called it a regional variation and been done with it. 

Here's something to think about:  you're talking about regional variation in how verb tenses are used.  Me, I'm thinking about regional (and cultural) variation in how stories are told. 

This may or may not be a surprise to anyone, but in English we use the past tense to talk about history (history book history), as well as to narrate stories.  In Spanish, and in other European languages, we use the present tense to narrate stories.  It's easy to call this a cultural variation, but, for example, if I started narrating a story in present tense in English, it would give my listeners a different experience, a different point of view. 

Maybe the same thing is happening here.  Maybe this regional variation in the distribution of preterite and present perfect tenses are not only reflect regional preferences in tenses, but reflect regional preferences in the way stories are told. 

In this dialog, for example, the woman is recounting the events of her day (past) which happen to be affecting her mood (now).  It's not a stretch in this case to use the present perfect, even though Latin American Spanish speakers (myself included) would probably use the preterite paradigm. 

Sociolinguists noted this regional difference a long time ago, and as scientists, I understand if they might be hesitant to speculate on why this difference exists (the safer speculations of course are diachronic ones). 

But me?  I speak Spanish now, and to me the regional preference for one tense or the other doesn't sound like a purely grammatical one... rather, it sounds like a difference in a way narrate their stories. 

(Now is the time for someone who has spent more time in northern Spain than I have to tell me, "No, JP, you're wrong, the use of present perfect for perfective actions is the same phenomenon that created the passé simple situation in French and the passato remoto situation in Italian... and then we'll quote sources and write papers... and in the end we'll still be left with... a regional variation that I can explain by quoting the definition of the present perfect!)  ;)

Hypersport,

I'm with you on this question. 

JP's comparison of this phenomenon with the narrative/historical present is very apt.  In that case, it is what it is and we all accept it as such.  So why not treat the present perfect the same way: a (regional) variant used to describe past events.

I wasn't going to bring it up but since you did, JP, it is interesting that in Italian and French the present perfect is the default past tense, but we'll leave it to the historical linguists to figure out how that came to be and whether or not it's related to the use of the present perfect in northern Spain.

Oh and JP, thanks for revisiting the translation above.

La frase que me da problemas en este dialogo es "Le tenia que haber cedido el asiento"  Siempre me confundo la traduccion de "should have"--parece que hay muchas maneras de decirlo en espanol, pero si "tener que" en el presente quiere decir "have to," en el imperfecto o pasado no querria decir "had to?"  "I had to give up my seat" (implies that I did).  Para mi tiene mas sentido usar "deber"-- "I should have given up my seat" (but I didn't).  Deseo que alguien me explique esto.  Es correcto decir "le debia haber cedido el asiento?"  Son iguales o cada uno tiene un sentido diferente?  Hay otra maneras de decir "should have?"   

Gracias!

rmiller22......tengo la misma pregunta....♪

re: the use of the present perfect for completed actions:

I may well have this all round my neck but I  have been toying with a theory that the present perfect is required because she has defined the time period "Hoy" and the converstion is taking place on the same day. ie the time period has yet to finish even though the action has?

Its like setting the depth of field on a temporal camera, anything in focus behind the present requires the present perfect .

same with este mez, semana, año but if you quote a completed time period like ayer, or la semana pasada you need the more tightly focused past lenses tenses.

Either you look back from a distance with the telephoto preterite or you move the camera itself (viewpoint) back in time, to that period, and use the closeup imperfect

Im with rmiller and roborob on the should have issue and would like to throw habria debido ceder in the mix for good measure

Nunca he visto esta estructura pero tener que se usa todo el tiempo.

Le tenía que haber cedido el asiento (pero no lo hice)

I ought to have given my seat to her (but I didn´t do it)

rmiller22, creo que la clave aquí es haber.  Sin haber...

Tuve que cederle mi asiento.

I had to give my seat to her.

Es un acción completa.   Creo que el imperfecto y el pretérito de tener que tienen (¡ja!) algo que ver con esto también.  Con el pretértio, creo que no hay duda de que se realizó esta acción.

Sin embargo, es obvio que deber nos resulta más fácil de entender como angloparlantes

Espero que esta traducción les ayude.

Tengo la impresión de que "tener que + verbo/tenían que + verbo" tiene un sentido más fuerte que "deber + verbo/debía +verbo"

dubhais y kikuyu...gracias por sus aclaraciones!  Ya entiendo mejor.

Lo hecho...hecho está....o debo decir...sea lo que sea..♪

Anna

Estoy de acuerdo.. para mi cuando dices, "Hoy iba en el bus de pie," significa que estabas de pie (standing) en el bus. En cambio, "Hoy iba a pie al autobús," significa "I went to the bus on foot. 

Hypersport

Gracias por hacer la pregunta sobre el presente perfecto, porque yo tenía la misma pregunta. Aprendí la mayoría de mi español en Bolivia, y allá usaban el presente perfecto para contar los eventos del día. Pero no es así cuando hablo con gente de otros países latinoamericanos. 

 Miller22

En cuanto a "I should have..." Me parece que hay varias maneras de decir esto. 

1. Le tenía que haber cedido el asiento. 2. Le hubiera cedido el asiento. 3. Le debía haber cedido el asiento. 

Se encuentra otro ejemplo del uso de tener que en la lección: Going on Vacation.

Aquí, dicen: "Tendría que haber sacado el pasaporte."  I should have gotten my passport. Aquí se usa el condicional para decir "I should have." 

Por eso, me encanta SpanishPod. Enseña español real... como se habla naturalmente entre amigos.

Y Dubhais tiene un buen punto: Si se usase el pretérito, tendría el significado de algo que ya está hecho.  Por ejemplo, "Tuve que cederle el asiento," significa que ya le has cedido el asiento. 

dpalms No sé. Yo uso andar para describir movimiento más desorganizado, o movimiento sin una destinación fija. Como por ejemplo: 1)Ando haciendo unos mandados en el centro. 2) Andé en bicileta por el campo. 3)Esta computadora no anda bien. Pero seguro que puedes también decir: Andé a pie al bús. Ahora esperemos a los hispanohablantes.

Me interesan mucho las diferencias sútiles en el uso de los tiempos gramáticos entre inglés y español.  Cuando escuché esta lección, tenía la misma pregunta sobre el uso del presente perfecto.  Pensaba, ¨no usaría el presente perfecto en inglés!¨  Gracias por las explicaciones, todos.  Qué interestante como la cultura tiene tanta influencia en los idiomas.

Aquí en el video se puede ver lo que debería haber pasado en el camión.

Eso me hice recordar a algo que dijo Henry James:

Three things in human life are important:  the first is to be kind; the second is to be kind; and the third is to be kind.

Dice en mi diccionario que para decir "kind" se puede usar:  amable, atento, tierno, o cariñoso.  Pues, no sé, esas palabras no me parecen adecuadas.  En el anuncio arriba se usa la palabra "bondad" y esa sí me gusta.  Intenté una traducción usándola:

Hay tres cosas importantes en la vida humana:  la primera, la bondad; la segunda, la bondad; y la tercera, la bondad.

Entonces, la pregunta para ustedes, mi querido equipo de Spanishpod, es:  ¿Cómo traducirían ustedes la cita?  ¿Como se dice "be kind"?

Gracias!

Muchas situaciones me dan pena!  Pero este estaba uno del peor....

Mi madre me dio su reloj para llevar a la tienda por comprar una correa nueva. Llevé a la tienda y después ellos me llamaron cuando correa llegó.  Pero cuando llegé a la tienda el reloj no estaba ahí.  Estaba enojado porque el reloj estaba muy caro y muy sentimental por mi madre....pues llamaba el tendero a menudo, "¿ha lo encontrado?"....Finalmente el tendero admitió el reloj estaba perdido.  Pero el ultimo día el reloj se encontró... ¡en mi casa!  Necisitaba volví a la tienda por disculparse. Me di mucha vergüenza!

Hola guys.

A quick pronunciation question. In the lesson at around 3m10sec Lily says, "Pues que le he robado el asiento a una señora mayor".

I can clearly hear "el asiento" but a bit later it´s said a bit faster but now i hear "la asiento" or "la siento".

The same happens later in the lesson with the phrase "le tenía que haber cedido el asiento".

The fast versions can also be heard in the dialogue section.

Is this a trick my ears are playing on me or can asiento be used with both "el" and "la".

Muchas gracias.

"Today I walked into a bus"

(hoy iba en el bus de pie)

Based on my previous studies, I would have guessed

(hoy fui en el bus de pie)

This is a recent past action than happened today rather than something that used to happen on an ongoing basis.

ronj00

The team actually pick this one up in a pa que sepas ( very badly it has to be said) I must be honest ive never really understood the problem but heres my take on the issue

I would translate (hoy iba en el bus de pie) as, today, i was on the bus on foot (standing).

Iba = "I was going", the means of locomotion is niether stated nor impled it just the past tense version of "I am going" ( i go)
e.g. "iba a comer" is i was going to eat. the only movement is temporal in exactly the same way as i am going to eat doesnt actually mean eating on the move.

Beware of the ongoing vs completed action rule its just a hint to point you in the right direction the real difference between the preterit and the imperfect is the narrative point of view.

yes you can say i "went" on the bus and this is a completed action viewed from a distance a snapshot a still frame. However, I "was" on the bus moves us closer to the action here we see the scene presented to us as though it were happening again. Its a completed action but to make the story more immediate the narrator has chosen to retell the story in a more immediate mode.

to expand on my analogy above...

Imagine a floating, time travelling camera that represents the narrative point of view. in the present tense the camera is close to the action filming with an all purpose fairly wide angle lens, when you use the progressive tenses you are holding the camera to your eye so that it shows the action from your point of view.

For the preterit the camera stays in the present but looks back with a long lens to a completed action in the past. the action is flattend and precied

for the imprefect the camera uses the same lens as the present tense but moves back into the past to view the action up close. we add markers to our speech (aba ia) to indicate that this is the past but it is effectively just "yesterdays" present tense.

In english we even have the option to dispense with the past tense markers  and retell a completed action as though it were happening again..so there i am on the bus, minding my own business when this bloke says to me.

Spanish wont let us do that but the need to retell the story in close up is still there so we can use the imperfect.

truth be told i was surprised that esti started a sentence with "hoy" and didnt then use the present perfect.

ronj00

rereading your question again tonight i see the walking aspect wasnt actaually the focus of your question. sorry, I really must read things properly.

You are of course correct that iba is also used for the repetitive and longer duration actions "i used to go ...""i would go ....every day " but I think that here its functioning as yesterdays present tense.  i go'ed on a bus.

I was going to eat it = iba a comer lo
i.e. not yo estaba yendo a comer lo.
or fui a comer lo