hypersport - Elimination of the helping verb haber

Oh, but this is not about dropping "haber" but about using the non-perfect tenses (tiempos simples) vs using the perfect tenses (tiempos compuestos), right?

I think the example "No debería hablarte así."  ("I shouldn't talk to you that way.") has a more general meaning (including the future) than "No debería haberte hablado así."

The second example "Si hubiera tenido dinero, iría al cine." is correct as far as I know if I cannot go to the cinema *now*: "If I had had money, I would go the movies (now)."

I'm not sure about the other examples including "deber". (And I have a bad conscience because of that as I should review the discussion of "deber" that was going on some weeks ago. :)

Hola martinillo.

No, these are examples where we use the helping verb haber, as I've shown in the examples.

Yes, the example you gave with hablarte asi does work in the context that you gave, but it is also  used when talking about the past, just like I saw it done in a novela.  A girl had just got done talking to someone in a very rude tone as she was obviously angry, she immediately apologized and omitted haber.  Sorry, I shouldn't have talked to you that way.

Also, keep in mind that in the second example...si hubiera tenido dinero we are talking about something that happened in the past, or in this case that didn't happen because you didn't have the money...If I had had the money, I would have gone.

You wouldn't say...If I had had money, I would go.  That doesn't work.

Si no hubieramos cometido tantos errores, habriamos ganado.  Or....hubieramos ganado is also accepted in Mexico.  Here you wouldn't say...Si no hubieramos cometido tantos errores, ganariamos.

Yeah, you can use iria in the present if you are going to use tuviera...si tuviera dinero, iria.  But once you start the sentence with si hubiera tenido, we know that you are talking about something in the past that didn't happen, different than if you are talking about something in the present that also hasn't happened. 

I bring up the subject because I recognize this more and more.  I know when haber is coming as I recognize context, so when it is eliminated I notice it right away.  It seems to be a faster, more colloquial way to speak.

Hello Hypersport!

Well, I'm not a native English speaker, but what about this situation: Yesterday there were still tickets for a particular movie available but I had no money with me to buy one. Today I meet a friend on his way to that movie for which I wasn't able to buy a ticket yesterday; thus, I cannot go with him now. In this particular situation, what's wrong with: "If I had had the money (yesterday), I would go (with you now)." In other words: there can be situations were the if clause is about something in the past, which, however, has an effect in the present.

Hola martinillo.

Yeah, your example works but it is a bit rare. 

hi everyone!  hypersport, I ran an informal experiment, just like in grad school...

I took your examples to Lili and Leo and asked them to translate them into English for me.  I did not not let them discuss their intuitions with each other, which annoyed Lili a little bit.  

Their translations and answers to my questions confirmed my hunch... here goes:

No debería hablarte así. I shouldn't talk to you like this (now).  The speaker is speaking in the present.  In English, we would probably have said "I shouldn't have spoken to you like that" in the same situation, but if you watch the original utterance in context again, I think you might find that both are possibe interpretations.  

The last three sentences you provided were all three translated by Lili and Leo in the same way. That is to say, they understood the sentences and agreed that the meaning was clear.

However, both of them (separately) expressed some grammatical discomfort with all three sentences.  That is to say, the sentences are non-standard.  The meaning is clear, but the form is not standard Spanish.  If I had encountered those sentences in my students' homework, I would have corrected them.

Native speakers of every language make non-standard sentences all the time in their native languages; I know I do, and I quite enjoy it. 

Now, there is probably a linguist out there that's analyzing non-standard Spanish data, who can tell you exactly what is going on here... me personally, I would need some more data.

If I were to draw a conclusion, however, I do not think we're witnessing an single 'auxiliary deletion' phenomenon that we can call "elimination of the helping verb haber."  In fact, I think there might be a couple things going on in your examples. 

Someone could write a book about the crazy behavior of deber.  Somebody oughtta. 

(but I'm pretty sure I wouldn't read it!  :)

This is a great conversation!  I'm so glad you asked the question, Hypersport, and I enjoyed reading what Martinillo and JP had to say.  

For my money, "deber" is the trickiest verb in the Spanish language.  And I suspect that for those of us whose native language is English, it's even trickier because we don't even have a single comparable verb, just a bunch of circumlocutions with their own goofiness -- should (shoulda, should of) ought, have to, gotta... (And the other modals are no easier in English -- "I coulda been a contender")

Anyhow, I guess all we have to do is understand these "haber-less" constructions and not, as language learners, try to reproduce them.

And no, you won't catch me reading that book either, although maybe someone can get a dissertation out of it:)

hypersport,

Me alegre que haya escrito esto porque creo que es importante para traducir en inglés.

Yo no he experimentado mucho de este problema con haber pero creo que esto es debido a la manera de la que hablo inglés:  dispone de un montón de cosas del irlandés lo que no tiene el perfecto presente.  Claro, yo uso el perfecto en inglés pero a veces nosotros tratamos de evitarlo sin querer.

Deber es diferente.  Estoy de acuerdo con anna8 y JP.

En cuanto a deber como en sus traducciones, deber en el presente suelo traducir como "must or ought".  Piénselo en el sustantivo: un deber es algo lo que usted está obligado a hacer. Esto siempre me ayuda.

Thanks everyone for the input! 

Well, personally I can't shake myself from using haber.  It's how I learned and it's pretty much engrained in me now.  It's because of that that I notice sometimes when things are shortened up though.

I know it's not a huge deal, it's like anna8 says, as long as you get what's going on, good enough!

And jp, thanks for getting lili and leo's takes on it!