russhuntley - aagh...the subjunctive

If i had a penny for each time the demise of the english subjunctive is announced I would be rich.
(NB i am not rich :-) 
Suffice it to say that we continue to employ constructions peculiar to the subjunctive mood in english. I might hazard a guess that were people to look a bit harder they would see the subjunctive still in frequent use although, i suspect its unlikely that many use it to any great extent on the terraces on a saturday.
it is important that you grasp this. I imagine that occasionally you may use the subjunctive yourself without realising. If i were you i would start with this link to wikipedia which is a great introduction to the subjunctive at home and abroad. I suspect that much of the confusion surrounding the subjunctive results from the glib assertion that it died out with the king james bible. Be that as it may, let me assure you that the subjunctive mood is not lost to the english speaker and understanding this may assist you in your studies of its spanish cousin. Dont let anyone tell you the subjunctive is only for other tongues if that were true i could not have written the above.

or should that be:

If I had a penny for every time that the demise of the english subjunctive were announced.

I may well be wrong :-)

Clever, Dp,very clever.

If I didn't know better, I'd find you a fiend. :-))

re conjugated equivalents i'm with you. this sort of thing is better but sadly it lists the indicative and the subjunctive forms as meaning the same thing which is pointless what we need is may and might including in the english translation. the shades of meaning are crucial. i cant understand why verb tables pretend otherwise.

merde, its half twelve. i,m up in five hours and i,ve just done a 13 hour day. more tomorrow....

cobre, no entiendo, need more, buenas noches :-)

Hi Russ,

I'm also studying the subjunctive this summer.  Word Magic Dictionary conjugates the Spanish verbs and has the equivalent English conjugation.  You can get a 15 day trial.  It also pronounces the words, which I find quite helpful.

Here's the link:

http://buy.wordmagicsoft.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=101

Also many of the SpanishPod Upper Intermediate lessons focus on using the subjunctive. 

Hi all
Donperigo I love your line “Be that as it may”

Here are some examples of the subjective mood in English from a book called Side by Side Spanish & English Grammar by Edith R. Farrell and C. Frederick Farrell Jr.
1.    that he take
2.    that I be
3.    that I were (past)
4.    If I were you  (contrary to fact)
5.    I wish that he were able to come
6.    I recommend that he learn the subjective
7.    It is necessary that Mary see its use.
8.    So be it.
9.    Long live the Queen
10.    Far be it from me to suggest.

10.    Far be it from me to suggest.

Could it be that  much confusion comes for the lack of Spanish subjuntive forms for common English expressions.

and to Don Perigo, sorry to leave you hanging like that. They say the devil is in the details, and you seem to have them all whipped into line. I am amazed. fiendishly clever.

good morning and gracias

I may be wrong but isnt it the dread subjunctive and not the dreaded.

stevestrv
be that as it may is like super concentrated subjunctive and yet, as god is my judge, i use expressions like this every day of my life. however, I appreciate than in this i am something of an oddball. how does it fare in the states? at the moment the subjunctive is not popular wif da yoof. though perhaps its time will come again.

obviously that should be "as god be my judge"

donperigo

In the states we certainly say “be that as it may” but I think of that as more of an expression then a general way of using the subjective, the same thing with “so be it”.  We do use the imperfect subject a lot to express thing which are contrary to fact “if I were you” for example.  It is difficult for me to answer your question; the fact is I know a lot more about Spanish grammar then English.   But I can say that if I look at the 10 examples that I posted, they do not sound strange to me.

We need that you be there on time. (subj. in nominal clause)

We would not be angry had you arrived on time. (subj. in conditional clause)

If I were a rich man, la da di di di di di di di di di di di di dum..... (subj in an a conditional clause)

"We need that you be there on time."*  wow!  I don't think I can say that. I can say "I demand that you be there...", or "I request that you be there...", but I have to say "I need you to be there..."

As for Tevye, I've been thinking about him today too.  In a lesson on Frenchpod recently, I realized that if Tevye were French, he would be singing in the imperfect indicative rather than the imperfect subjunctive:  Si j'etais un hombre riche... vs si fuera rico.  Then I was shocked -- shocked -- to learn that in spoken Spanish, this conditional contrary to fact (If I were...) is frequently expressed using that same imperfect indicative. (Si donperigo era rico...)

Well, I'm really too upset to go on...

anna8
thats 50c in the scuse moi french box

would that i were rich :-(

not sure whether this is pertinant to the discussion but i am reminded of a scene in the second series of blackadder, set in elizabethan england.

Blackadder: Tell me, young crone, is this Putney?
Young Crone:  That it be! That it be!
Blackadder:  "Yes it is", not "that it be." You don't have to talk in that stupid voice to me; I'm not a tourist.

was listening to the radio today and found myself shouting at joan osbourne

what if god WERE one of us.

i really need to get out more.